holy crap transformers are expensive!

[Robimus]

That's the perception I got holding him in hand.

If someone with Tarn could post pics of him next to Generations Jazz or Classics Sunstreaker that would be awesome.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by RNSrobot

What?

This is factually untrue. Tarn is not a "small" voyager in any way. He's not SS86 Hot Rod or Ironhide. He's as tall as recent voyager Primes and Springers. He's a solid, HEAVY, toy with little "hollowness.

Like, an opinion is "I'm not a fan of this figure." Saying "this figure is too small and is smaller than deluxes from chug" is literally --- the actual definition of literally --- wrong. You put "voyager" in quotation marks when he is one of the purest examples of the voyager class in years. He, Jhiaxus, Inferno, are fantastic, sizeable, well-executed voyagers; they are not "slightly bigger deluxes."

Further, I'm looking at some older deluxes now and this idea that they are "monsters", even with some of the clear size differences from Siege to now, is ridiculous.

[Outtsyder]

Tarn stands about 6.5" at the top of the head.
Reveal The Shield Jazz is about 5.5".

[GotBot]

Originally Posted by Robimus

That's the perception I got holding him in hand.

If someone with Tarn could post pics of him next to Generations Jazz or Classics Sunstreaker that would be awesome.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

You aren't wrong, to a degree.

The other commenter you quoted was completely correct that Tarn is indeed more than the market positioned inaccurate Hot Rod (77grams all in) and Ironhide (116 compared to the Siege 108 and ER 124 grans). Admittedly, both of the above have a number of parts but they gave up wayyyyyy too much mass to be categorized as voyager.

Tarn has zero hollowness and more paint than either of the above. He clocks in at 128grams, compared to the traditional 145 to 165 grams for a voyager. While Tarn gives up a bit more mass than I like, I also think the other aspects do make up the value. You can feel the love with Tarn.

[Skorpulator]

Tarn... Instantly regretted buying that one. Boring transformation, exposed hands, and the tank can't even roll around.

[Robimus]

Thanks. Tarn certainly didn't skip leg day

One of the things that somewhat tricked me on the size is the box. I'm a bit out of the loop for sure, but the new bots I've seen don't have legs long enough to to fill in the whole package. Tarn clearly does.

Still, not for me. But better than my first impression.

Originally Posted by Outtsyder

Tarn stands about 6.5" at the top of the head.
Reveal The Shield Jazz is about 5.5".

[Dark Rage]

Originally Posted by MapleMegatron

That's what I abide to, but of course just for the stuff we really want. Which I think all our points of view are converging onto. Of course, one might not realize they really want something until it's gone, like any of our American brethren with Galaxy Shuttle. Or better yet that Siege Skywarp. We were all able to order it for a while on Amazon.ca (and .com) and then one day it just was sold out and the price has climbed ever since.

There's a few points you brought up that I like a lot and wanted to further talk about. Your example of new figures going for more than MP versions of them got me thinking. With the advancements we've had in transformation and articulation, many recent figures are as articulated as MP figures. The recent voyager sized Optimus figures we got can pull the same poses as MP-10, which was held as the standard for quality for a while. More articulation means more parts and more parts means more molded pieces, which is the bulk of the investment on Hasbro's end, material/sunk cost wise.

So now we live in a time when we have articulation on mainline toys similar to masterpiece toys of 10-15 years ago and yet we didn't scoff at paying $65 USD for a voyager sized MP Sideswipe. So $45 CAD for a voyager sized Tarn that has similar articulation to that MP Sideswipe starts making sense.

To go with that evolution of price/value, did you get or take notice of the Warrior Class Optimus prime from earthrise? It's a fascinating figure because it costs around $10 less than a standard deluxe, so it's closer to the price we would have paid for deluxes a few years ago, and has similar amounts of articulation to those older deluxes. So we are paying similar prices for similar types of toys, once inflation is taken into account.

On a very very side note, it also reminds me of the idea that while many fans scoff at the cheaper toys made just for kids, those toys have the same articulation as the toys that made us fall in love with the brand as kids (be it G1, or the Unicron Trilogy). So toys meant just for kids to enjoy the brand have had a standard kind of articulation and price point since the 80s. But that's neither here nor there.

Back to FOMO, So damn glad I bought that Super Megatron when I still could!

Old Transformers are only going to be popular/rare/hold it's value -until- the newest/latest design comes out and makes it obsolete.

If we're talking about designs/engineering, I see the knock off MP cars (Sideswipe/Sunstreaker/Datsun brothers/etc.) selling for $40 at local marketplace apps.

The new advancements in the mainline has made posing and articulation great, but just don't look from the back end of the TF, cause the trade off to keep it affordable is an empty/hallow limbs, something's gotta give.

I'm looking at my old classics TFs that got me really into collecting, but some of them are really bad transformations (like Sunstreaker or Ratchet), but they're much more poseable than their G1 versions.

Classics hound did a pretty good/simple job, but once Buzzworthy Hound comes out, some folks to get rid of their classics Hound. At least that's house interpret it as, same for these really expensive third party TFs, because as soon as a mainline version is finally released by Hasbro, people are going to dump theirs.

People may also accept these prices because it goes well with the scale of the other main line TFs they have fun WFC/Legacy, while a third party one will just stick out and look inconsistent with the rest. I would rather have a bunch of deluxes, Voyagers and leaders that look good together than maybe 2-3 Third party "Masterpieces" (don't get me started on how people are trying to sell their 3P/4P TFs to new collectors who don't know any better).

Tarn is a solid figure (literally), but I was expecting a bit more from the transformation (I don't follow the comics). Lego Prime is nice, but I just rent to enjoy the blockier TFs more, there's just something more interesting with a modular-esque TF to fiddle with.

I'm also ok with plastic wheels instead of rubber, because rubber can dry out as well, even in storage.

[RNSrobot]

#small

[RNSrobot]

Originally Posted by GotBot

You aren't wrong, to a degree.

The other commenter you quoted was completely correct that Tarn is indeed more than the market positioned inaccurate Hot Rod (77grams all in) and Ironhide (116 compared to the Siege 108 and ER 124 grans). Admittedly, both of the above have a number of parts but they gave up wayyyyyy too much mass to be categorized as voyager.

Tarn has zero hollowness and more paint than either of the above. He clocks in at 128grams, compared to the traditional 145 to 165 grams for a voyager. While Tarn gives up a bit more mass than I like, I also think the other aspects do make up the value. You can feel the love with Tarn.

Voyager isn't about mass, it's about the needed tools and molds to make them. Deluxe are allotted less tools and molds than Voyager. That's why designers like mark pointed out how amazing it was that one of the Takara designers figured out how to make entirely new toys for Cosmos and override with HALF the toolings for their size classes (two for cosmos, three for override). Ironhide and hotrod are more complex and detailed toys than they would be able to be at a deluxe budget, full stop. Hot rod also includes two guns, a saw, matrix, custom exhaust blast effects, matrix glow. Has flipup helmet with visor. Has spin out welder. Ironhide has less accessories but obviously is also chunkier.

They're not "inaccurate" unless the sole marker is "mass." At that, what is mass? Some toys might skew lighter because of a variety of reasons that aren't "cheaping out" (might be).

Hot rod as a deluxe gets two fewer molds than the voyager did and isn't a mini-mp.

Meanwhile blitzwing ends up a leader and looks like shit outside of robot mode... Hot rod is clearly a much more effective use of the higher class budget for "size" than blitz.

[GotBot]

Originally Posted by RNSrobot

Voyager isn't about mass, it's about the needed tools and molds to make them. Deluxe are allotted less tools and molds than Voyager. That's why designers like mark pointed out how amazing it was that one of the Takara designers figured out how to make entirely new toys for Cosmos and override with HALF the toolings for their size classes (two for cosmos, three for override). Ironhide and hotrod are more complex and detailed toys than they would be able to be at a deluxe budget, full stop. Hot rod also includes two guns, a saw, matrix, custom exhaust blast effects, matrix glow. Has flipup helmet with visor. Has spin out welder. Ironhide has less accessories but obviously is also chunkier.

They're not "inaccurate" unless the sole marker is "mass." At that, what is mass? Some toys might skew lighter because of a variety of reasons that aren't "cheaping out" (might be).

Hot rod as a deluxe gets two fewer molds than the voyager did and isn't a mini-mp.

Meanwhile blitzwing ends up a leader and looks like shit outside of robot mode... Hot rod is clearly a much more effective use of the higher class budget for "size" than blitz.

Please, I'm begging, stop trying to justify being taken advantage of, lol, especially in terms of that embarrassing Hot Rod they scammed fans with. It's shocking how 3 years later, now and then, someone will still try to justify it to themselves by bringing it up to me, lol, but the math hasn't changed though and never will, except that the proposed Velocitron release, that seems to have gotten nixed, was going to reduce the mass even more by not including the matrix while simultaneously raising the price for it from 39.99 in SS 86 to 44.97. I have worked in production, sales and marketing. While the industries are different, the same tenets apply, so I'm actually not talking out of my ass here.

Voyager is not a size. It is a price point and every price point for that matter, is absolutely, in part, about mass, as that is allocation of actual product/ plastic content used in production. Is it the only thing? No. But, it is a major one, and as a company, any company, decides to raise prices (especially as much and as often as Hasbro) needs to build on pre-established value, not erode it. Hasbro has not done that in several cases. While SOME trade off is acceptable (Tarn's lost mass is arguably made up by the things I said above. Hot Rod gave up over half the mass for very, very little gain.The figure isn't very good at all and never was. But, even if you love it, they traded away wayyyy more mass than they should have to make a voyager value proposition.)

I am well aware of tools and how they work. Mark is more of a shill than bloody Warden lol and Takara designs are rarely impressive to me, lol, look no further than God Bomber and Star Convoy, yikes.

Ironhide and Hot Rod are embarrassments, if I may be so frank and honest, and only someone who has not bothered to do analysis of cost value or maybe, I dunno, an addict or something, thinks for a second they are ANYWHERE close to true voyager value propositions of similar products. They aren't and never were.

Even with attempts to justify them, they are inaccurate, Ironhide less so but Hot Rod is a slap in the face of every fan, either you see that or bury your head in the sand. It is what it is. MP is trash that usually breaks, so comparing Hot Rod to that isn't a good thing to me lol. Blitzwing looks like shit in all modes. I detested the entire experience of him so much that it was a rare case of gladly getting rid of it.

Cyclonus, for example, had the previously established mass with more paint, parts and engineering. They charged me more, but gave me more. Jhiaxus, traded 5 grams but also had more parts, paint, no hollowness, other than where I said in plane mode he should have had 2 underneath flaps (which coincidentaly would have also made up the 5 grams lost), Primal and Tigatron traded some Mass, about 15 grams, but they have significant paint but also more complex molded detail. Hot Rod fails to do that and simply isn't close to being in the league or pricepoint of those other like mentioned products.

I stand by my math, comparative analysis and previous comments.

[delrue]

Damn dude, these kind of sound like opinions and not something you should continually be presenting as facts. There is NO such thing as being objective. Your objective opinion is just your subjective view of what objectivity should be.